Rashi-Is-Simple Mailing List (C) Dr Russell Jay Hendel, 1999 http://www.shamash.org/rashi Volume 3 Number 5 Produced Aug. 06 1999 Topics Discussed in This Issue ------------------------------ v4q5-13 Refutation from Shraga Roth on v4d5-13 v5z11-25 Dialog with Principle on using Rashi Is Simple for Chinuch v4r5-13 2 questions from Chaiim Brown on v4d5-13 v4y5-13 'AYN' means NOT THIS but SOMETHING ELSE(Ans to Roth/Brown) v5z13-15 LOGIC vs GZAYRAH SHAVAH; Answer to CBrown #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# (C) Dr Hendel, 1999 *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#* *************************** *** READING TIPS *** *************************** IF YOU ARE IN A HURRY WE RECOMMEND THE FOLLOWING SECTIONS: * VERSE: * RASHI TEXT: * BRIEF BUT COMPLETE NARRATIVE EXPLANATION: "HOW DO I FIND QUICKLY A SPECIFIC SECTION?" ANSWER: Use your FIND menu For example: FIND VERSE: takes you to the beginning of the next section. Similarly FIND NARRATIVE EXPLANATION: takes you to the brief explanation of Rashi. "IS THERE AN EASY WAY TO GO TO EACH VERSE AND POSTING?" Yes. Use your FIND menu. "FIND #*#*#*#" takes you to the next posting #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# (C) Dr Hendel, 1999 *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#* VERSE: v4q5-13 From: rashi-is-simple@shamash.org To: Undisclosed-recipients:; Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:54:18 -0400 (EST) Subject: RASHI-IS-SIMPLE: Moderated Message From: Paul RothbartTo: rashi-is-simple@shamash.org Subject: Re: RASHI-IS-SIMPLE digest 54 I believe your explanation of Rashi in Bamidbar 5:13 that one witness is believed is only talking about a case where the husband believes the witness, is mistaken. Rashi says (in the next Rashi) that the posuk is talking about a case where there were two witnesses for the "setirah" THis is therefore not comarable to the Rambam in Sotah 1:9 which is speaking about a case where there was only one witness for "setirah", but rather to the Rambam in 1:14 where one witness is believed after setirah. THere the Rambam does not give the requirement of the husban having to believe him. The reason why this is different from most cases of "ervah" that require two witnesses is because there is raglayim ledavar that the woman did something wrong. Shraga ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# (C) Dr Hendel, 1999 *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#* VERSE: v5z11-25 The following email was part of an exchange I recently had with a principle involved in Chinuch. I thought I might share it with the group to find out who else is interested in such CHINUCH matters. If people like the attached note then I can easily add 1-3 simple questions after each posting (This would simply be another SECTION---I would title it GOOD RESEARCH QUESTIONS FOR STUDENTS). A person answering this set of questions has gained competence in the following skills: ---Using a Konkordance or CD Rom ---Checking secondary sources like Rashi to verify a pattern ---learning to iron out small kinks in good patterns. Excerpts from the email follows >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>EMAIL TO HIGH SCHOOL PRINCIPLE<<<<<<<<<<<<< Regarding your request for curriculum for High School students based on my Rashi website Here is a model lesson based on a recent Rashi posting. (Volume 3 Number 3) Kindly review it and see if it is to your liking Regards Russell KINDLY ANSWER THE FOLLOWING MODEL QUESTIONS QUESTION 1) How often does the chumash cite itself (ie how often does God command something and say "As I, God, have commanded" QUESTION 2) For each verse whiere God cites himself go and find the verse referred to MODEL EXAMPLE: Gn 12:4 says that ABRAM JOURNEYED AS GOD COMMANDED HIM THIS REFERS BACK TO GEN12:3 where GOD COMMANDED "GO FORTH FROM YOUR LAND..." QUESTION 3) IN FINDING THESE CROSS REFERENCES ARE THERE ANY REINTERPRETATIONS OR OTHER DIFFICULTIES YOU ENCOUNTER. EXPLAIN and JUSTIFY ANSWERS: Answers may be found in v5e11-25 #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# (C) Dr Hendel, 1999 *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#* VERSE: v4r5-13 From: C1A1Brown@aol.com To: rjhendel@juno.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:51:11 EDT Subject: digest 54 >>>But Rashi says on 4-5-13 that even one witness suffices!! But this is no longer a problem. Because Rashi couldn't have possibly believed that two witnesses are not necessary after he said so explicitly on two verses. The principle he stated WITNESS = 2 WITNESSES applies to only 3 verses. How then could Rashi ignore it here.<<< I don't think this is a question on Rashi. Rashi does read the pasuk as referring to 2 witnesses - 'aid ain bah' =there aren't 2 witnesses who have seen the adulterous act, only one witness. The chiddush of the Torah is that although there are not two witnesses the women is nonetheless deemed a sotah bec. she was already warned (kinuy). See Sifsei Chachamim >>>Proof that Rashi could not have seriuosly believed this COUNT GAME that the witnesses are asked 7 questions comes from the fact that they are asked many more then 7 questions (WHAT place, HOW it took place etc).<<< HOwever, only these 7 must they answer and cannot say we don't know - see mishnayot in Ch. 5 of Sanhedrin. The gemara Rashi is quoting is used to derive the need for precisely 7 questions, not just a general need for precise questions. >>>Second we should make some comments about WORD LINKS. My own opinion is that the term WORD LINK (GEZAYRAH SHAVAH) has many meanings. It could refer to a sinaitic tradition. But it apparently refers to any derivation based on a common word. For example the commandment to require 10 people for davening is rabbinic. Nevertheless the number 10 is based on a WORD LINK (clearly there could not be a sinaitic word link to a rabbinic commandment)<<< The latter case is merely an asmachta. The case of learning out derisha and chakira is a din d'oraysa. See Tos. in Sukkah 31a d.h. vR"Y all GZ"Sh are from Sinai and Rashi even extends it to other middot. Kol Tuv, -Chaim #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# (C) Dr Hendel, 1999 *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#* VERSE: v4y5-13 v4y5-13 ...And there is NO witness IN HER [Moderator the verse is speaking about a husband who was suspicious that his wife cheated on him but he has no proof] v1-5-24 And Chanoch was NO MORE because God took him v1-37-24 ..and the pit was empty, water was NOT IN IT [Moderator: The reference is to the pit into which Joseph was thrown by his brothers] v3-13-31 ...and black hairs are NOT IN IT [Moderator: The reference is to a so called LEPROUS BALD SPOT. It has a status of UNCLEAN. If however it had had BLACK hairs it would not achieve the status] v4-35-27 There is no blood IN HIM [Moderator: The verse is speaking about a murder thru negligence; the negligent murderer is exiled to a refuge city. If he (willfully) goes out and is killed by the nearest of kin of the deceased then the nearest of kin HAS NO BLOOD IN HIM (is not liable to a death penalty)] RASHI TEXT: v4y5-13 The verse says "AND THERE IS NO WITNESS.." So we conclude that if there was even ONE witness that says she had an affair, then she would be ineligible for the suspicious-wife-ceremony v1-5-24 Chanoch was a righteous person but was weak and could have returned to the deeds of his generation. Therefore God hastened his death before his years were up. This is why the verse uses the term HE WAS NO MORE by Chanoch but does not use this term by any other person because God took him prior to his time. v1-37-24 It says the PIT WAS EMPTY. Couldn't I therefore infer that it had no water? But the second sentence is rhetorical---It had no water but it had scorpions and snakes (Furthermore the word TAKE can mean DEATH) As it says "Behold I take the beauty of your eyes (your wife) from you"(Ez-24-16) v3-13-31 But if it had had black hairs it would be TAHOR because black hairs are a sign of TAHOR in BALD SPOTS (cf 3-13-37)(Cf Rambam, Leprosy 8:8) v4-35-27 The killing of a negligent murderer is like the killing of a dead person So there is no death penalty BRIEF BUT COMPLETE NARRATIVE EXPLANATION: [As Shraga Roth and Chaiim Brown pointed out my explanation of 4d5-13 in v3n4 was incorrect. (See v4q5-13 and v4r5-13). I would like to therefore clarify the correct explanation. Before reviewing 4d5-13 we will present some simple grammar. My comments on my errors will be presented afterwards in the COMMENTS ON RASHIS FORM section] There are two words for negation in Hebrew: LO and AYN. There are well documented GRAMMATICAL differences between the uses of these words. I would like to supplement these GRAMMATICAL differences with a SEMANTIC difference-- --AYN denotes a NEGATION but ALLOWS SIMILAR ITEMS For example, (1-37-24) Jacobs sons threw Joseph into a pit with NO WATER---but it did have SCORPIONS and SNAKES. For example, (3-13-31)if a bald spot had NO BLACK HAIR NOW it would be ritually impure; but if the bald spot HAD PREVIOUSLY had BLACK HAIR it would be pure For example,(4-35-27) if someone killed a murderer-thru-negligence then he has NO BLOOD (does not get a death penalty); but it is nevertheless prohibited (Rambam Murder 5:10) For example (1-5-24) Chanoch did NOT DIE but was taken by God; although he did not die of old age he nevertheless did live thru middle age For example a women suspected of adultery who had no witnesses against her could be tested by the water. But if she had one witness she could not be tested. {LIST1} summarizes these examples. The footnotes show further examples (not covered by Rashi who was using workbook methods.. he gave us some examples and let us fill in the rest). For example: (1-30-1) Rachel who was barren asks for boys and if NOT I am dead (If NOT A BOY but A GIRL then she wouldn't be considered dead.)There are many similar examples. The reader is invited to try. COMMENTS ON RASHI'S FORM: We make 5 points Point 1: Rashi used workbook methods. There are about 6 dozen occurences of AYN in the Torah. Rashi explained about half a dozen and let the reader fill in the rest Point 2: 1-37-24 has 3 equally valid derivations. They are as follows-- --EXTRA SENTENCE method: "The pit was empty" and "It had no water" So Rashi Is Simple; the 2nd sentence must be rhetorical...it had not water but it did have snakes --RabbiIshmael method: The GENERAL statement is 'the pit was empty' The PARTICULAR statement is 'it had no water'. According to Rabbi Ishmael a GENERAL-PARTICULAR statement is exhausted with the PARTICULAR statement's meaning. It is only water that it did not have but it had other things like snakes --SYNONYM method(AYN vs LO): AYN always denotes that only that thing was negated but something similar was allowed Point 3: People very often get turned off by Talmudic hair picking. In this particular example we are suggesting that AYN specifically invites comments of the form "Water NO but SNAKES yes"--in other words there are certain words which invite such distinctions but otherwise you cannot arbitrarily use such methods. Point 4: I should clarify my errors from last time. I correctly cited Sotah 1:9 that if the husband believed one witness about his wife going into seclusion (after having warned her) then he had to divorce her. I cited Sanhedrin 24:1---judges who believe one witness can decide that way (if they are highly trained judges). In fact I could have cited Marriage 24:17 that a husband must divorce his wife if someone he believes says his wife had an affair. But this is besides the point. As Shraga Roth correctly points out the main topic of the verse is the "suspicioun of adultery" Thus my bringing in laws about believing one witness is irrelevant The suspected-wife-ritual guarantees removal of doubt. It requires 3 things ---a WARNING by the husband not to be alone with a certain man ---a WITNESSING of SECLUSION of her with that man ---lack of EVIDENCE of ADULTERY by the woman. A woman with these 3 characteristics has a state of SUSPICION. The suspected-wife-ritual (4-5) removes this suspicion. Note that if we know for certain that she committed adultery then we do not perform the suspected-wife-ritual (because its goal is to remove doubt and we have no doubt...we know she did it). According to our verse EVIDENCE of ADULTERY is conferred by one witness. Shraga suggests that one witness is effective here because the women is suspicious to begin with (since she secluded herself with a man AFTER being warned by her husband). I would however observe that there are 3 cases where one witness is effective {LIST2} ---the unknown-murder-ritual (5-21) ---the suspected-wife-ritual (4-5) ---the sin offering (3-4-23 or 3-4-28) Clearly what they have in common is RITUAL ATONEMENT. Thus I would simply say that CONVICTION requires TESTIMONY (2 WITNESSES) while ATONEMENT requires KNOWLEDGE (1 witness). Point 5: Recalling our discussion in v5b19-18 we note that we established that the term WITNESS intrinsically means TWO WITNESSES (Chaiim points this out in the name of the Sifsay Chachamim and I also saw it in the Malbim). So the verse reads "It a WITNESS not be in her" which means It WiTNESSES not be in her. We then apply the rule about 'AYN' NOT to infer that WITNESSES are not there but one witness may be there. This may sound complicated but that is because we don't have a Biblical ear. If we did we would hear WITNESS as meaning TWO WITNESSES. And we would hear the word AYN as meaning 'NOT THIS BUT SOMETHING SIMILAR' LISTS {For ADVANCED students and for those with more time}: {LIST1} {Verses showing that AYN indicates NEGATION but allows similar items to be there *3} VERSE WHAT IS SIMILAR THING WITH NOT THERE THAT MAY BE THERE NOT(AYN) ========== ==================== ========================== 1-5-24 Normal death Sudden death *1 1-37-24 *2 Water in pit Snakes and scorpions in pit 3-13-31 Black hair there now Black hair HAD been there 4-35-27 No death penalty But Prohibition exists 4-5-13 No Witnesses One witness exists *3 There are about 6 dozen occurences of AYN in the Torah. We should really go thru all 6 dozen and explain them. We suffice with observing that e.g. --(1-30-1) Rachel(who was barren) asks for Boys "and if NOT I am dead---we can infer that she would settle for girls --1-41-8 There was NO one to explain Pharoh's dream; as Rashi points out people EXPLAINED but did not EXPLAIN THE DREAM (ie they gave explanations that they thought Pharoh wanted to hear) We have previously explained this using an alternative method (v1c41-8, v1n3) FOOTNOTES *1 I believe the reference is to DEATH BY KISS referring to a death that happens suddenly (the soul is "kissed by God" and leaves the body). This is in contrast to an ordinary person who dies thru a process of old age and gradual death *2 There are 3 derivations of this Midrash ---from the word AYN (Water is not there but snakes are there) ---from the 2 sentences("Pit empty" "No water is there") ---from the RabbiIshmael rule of GENERAL-PARTICULAR(EMPTY-NO WATER) {LIST2} {Of procedures where one witness is valid. As can be seen they all involve atonement. It is suggested that atonement requires KNOWLEDGE (1 witness) while convictions of monetary and criminal liability requires TESTIMONY(2 witnesses} Item Verse Theme ==== ===== ===== the unknown-murder-ritual 5-21 Atonement for murder the suspected-wife-ritual 4-5 Atonement for suspicion the sin offering 3-4-23,28 Atonement for sin CROSS REFERENCES: v4d5-13 Posting on suspected woman v4q5-13 question showing error in my explanation v4r5-13 question showing error in my explanation v1c41-8 Alternative approach ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS: RULE CLASSIFICATION {See the web site for comparable examples}: SYNONYMS SQL {Database query comments for those who know Database theory}: SELECT verse FROM Bible WHERE Is NotNull SELECT word FROM verse WHERE word.root = 'AYN' #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# (C) Dr Hendel, 1999 *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#* VERSE: v5z13-15 This is a response to one of Chaiim Brown's two questions. Rashi on 5-13-15-AND YOU SHALL CROSS EXAMINE WELL-states that we infer from this verse that the cross examination must include 7 questions on the TIME-PLACE of the crime: Namely, --What hour of the day --What day of the week --What day of the month --What month --What year in the 7 year cylce --Which "seven year unit" in the 50 year cycle --what place First let me point out that my list of 7 in v5-13-15 v3n4 was wrong (I left out the question on place and added the question what year (which is identical with "what year in the 7 year cycle)) My apologies. The source for the above is Rambam, Witnesses 1:4 Next, let us list two possible derivations of the above law. The first explanation is given by Rashi who follows the Talmud Rashi following the Talmud claims that the law is based on a GEZAYRAH SHAVAH (WORD LINK). That is, there are 3 verses in the Bible where it uses the phrase AND YOU WILL CROSS EXAMINE WELL & BEHOLD (it is true testimony). Counting the words denoting cross examination in these verses we find 7--so we refer them to the 7 questions listed above (See Volume 3 Number 4, v5-13-15)--there are actually 8 words and it is rather a lengthy story). The other approach to derivation is suggested by me. The word WELL in the Biblical phrase CROSS EXAMINE THEM WELL suggests a non-superficial cross examination.Furthermore as I showed last time the word AND BEHOLD (..CROSS EXAMINE THEM WELL & BEHOLD (it is true)) shows that the Judges must be surprised at the verdict Finally from a technical point of view since the 3 verses where this phrase occurs span the whole gamut of possible legal cases: --a city that worships idols --a person that worships idols --a person that bears false witness in any matter we are justified in using the logical inference method known as MULTI VERSE GENERALIZATION (BINYAN AV). The GENERALIZAION simply says that all court cases must have an INTENSE and not a SUPERFICIAL cross examination. In summary there are two suggested approaches to the laws of cross examination: One approach says the 7-set-of-time-place-questions are derived from a WORD LINK while the other approach says it is derived from a process of GENERALIZATION. I would now like to probe deeper into this argument. First let me defend Chaiim's position (which is the position of Rashi, Gemarrah etc). Then I will look at the one question I asked Chaiim which he answered (and which I can weakly refute). Finally I will present my own arguments. Chaiim's arguments are simple: The method of WORD LINKs is accepted by everyone to be SINAITICALLY TRANSMITTED. That is to say even though this email list believes that all midrash is logical and even though we have defended midrashim by purely logical means nevertheless everyone (including myself) acknowleges that WORD LINKS are an exception to the rule. A WORD LINK to be effective must be transmitted. The simplest and most famous example is 5-24-1 WHEN A MAN **TAKES** A WIFE. Based on a word link with 1-23-13 **TAKE** THE FIELD we learn that the act of TAKING (ie legally ACQUIRING) a wife is identical with the act of TAKING (ie legally ACQUIRING) a field--so they both can be ACQUIRED/TAKEN by MONEY or DOCUMENT. This gives rise to our custom of performing wedding ceremonies by giving a ring (an object of monetary value). In conclusion Chaiim's argument is simple and clean. I tried to suggest that although WORD LINKS are Sinaitic nevertheless the term is sometimes used to denote items other than those handed down to Moses. For example a WORD LINK is used to show that a MINYAN must be 10 people even though the requirement of MINYAN is rabbinic. This proves that the term WORD LINK doesn't always refer to Sinaitically transmitted laws. Chaiim in term responded that although people agree that WORD LINK in reference to Minyan is a borrowed term nevertheless that couldn't apply to our situation since Tosafoth says that the 7-question-cross-examination is Biblical. I could answer Chaiim by saying that indeed it is Biblical but that its Biblicality comes from GENERALIZATION and not from WORD LINK. That is, I could claim that the verse EXPLICITLY says that YOU SHALL CROSS EXAMINE WELL TILL YOU ARE SURPISED that the testimony is true. Why do we need a word link???!??? So Tosafoth is pointing out that the list of cross examination questions is Biblical!! Indeed that is true. My point is simply that just as the rabbinic idea of minyan was pegged on to a "cute" word link so too the Biblical idea of 7-question- cross-examination was pegged on to a "cute" word Link. I could also point out that WORD LINKS usually are simply two verses with a LINKED WORD. They don't involve COUNTING GAMES (such as occurs in the count of 7 (which is really 8!!). BUt the above answer is not strong. How then do I really answer Chaiim? I suggest an approach based on NAFKAH MINAH (exploring for a practical difference). What is the practical difference, if any, between Chaiim's approach that it is so to speak a Sinaitic decree that we ask 7 cross examiniation questions and my approach that the requirement to ask 7 questions is based on the explicit repeated Biblical request to cross examine well? One practical difference is whether the number of essential cross examination questions can change from those 7. Let me give an example. Suppose two people come to court and claim that they saw a murder in Manhattan tonight. I could ask --What hour did you see the murder (e.g. At 11 PM) --What day of the month(eg 5th) --What day of the week (Thursday) --What month (August) --What year (1999) --What street (eg 65th street) --What avenue (eg 5th avenue) --What borough (Manhattan) --What city (NY) --What state (NY) --What country (USA) Note that I suggest asking 5 questions on WHEN and 6 on WHERE. I have NOT yet claimed this is the law. Rather I have claimed that ***IF*** the derivation of the cross examination law is based on logic vs word-link then it would follow that the cross examination question set could have more or less than 7 questions. In other words I am suggesting that the practical difference on whether Chaiim (WORD LINK) or me (GENERALIZATION) is correct involves whether the essential cross examination set can involve more or less than 7 questions. Now that I have formulated a practical difference between the WORD LINK approach and the LOGICAL-GENERALIZATION approach let me try and defend the law that I just suggested in the NY murder case. There is an obscure law in the laws of witnesses that just as the mentally unbalanced may not act as witnesses so too people who are excessively simple (relative to national norms) may not testify. The Rambams exact language (Testimony 9:10) is that >The excessively simple who do not recognize contradictions >and who don't understand the content of things the way other >people do and similarly the people who are rattled or babble >in their thinking or are fixated excessively--all these >people are classified as mentally unbalanced (and hence >cannot testify). And this matter is according to how the >Judge sees fit because it is impossible to gives written rules >for estimating such things. We now understand the 7-cross-examination questions. A person who says that a murder happened tonight is a witness But if he doesn't know the standard conventions of time and place the way other people do then his testimony should be invalid. So, if a person says a murder happened toight but CANNOT answer what the date was or what year it is or what month then that person is like a mentally unbalanced person and is unfit for testimony. This is clear from the above citation from the Rabmam. Returning to the language of our verse we would say tha the person could not be CROSS EXAMINED WELL. But it immediately follows that when business is done in 7 and 50 year cycles then we ask for which year among the 7 and which 7 year cycle in the 50 year cycle is involved. For a person who cannot answer this question does not have knowledge "like other people". On the other hand today when people don't normally talk about the 7 year cycle it would appear to me that we do not ask 6 questions on time but only 5 (hour, weekday, month, day, year). In other words I am positing that the underlying criterion for cross examination is seeing whether the witness has normal national cognitive patterns. In the times of the Talmud there were 6 temporal criteria needed while today only 5 are needed. Also, it would strongly appear to me that as part of the essential cross examination questions we ask details about WHERE the crime happened. For a person who knows that a crime happened in Manahattan but does not know that manhattan is in Ny or that NY is in NY or that NY is in the US, such a person has the same characteristics as a person who does not know the basic units of time...the person is excessively simple and is not acceptable as a witness. To summarize, if Chaiim's position is right then Chaiim would accept a witness who knew the murder happened in Manhattan and did not that Manhattan is in NY. On the other hand I would not accept such a person as a witness since he is excessively simple Similarly Chaiim would ask 6 questions of WHEN DID IT HAPPEN today while I would ask 5. I believe the above discussion greatly clarifies many important points on how to do Midrash. I would invite other people who wish to continue this thread to do so. Russell Hendel; Moderator Rashi is Simple #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# (C) Dr Hendel, 1999 *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#* COMMUNICATIONS -------------- Send via email SUBMISSIONS/responses/contributions to rashi-is-simple@shamash.org If you want your communication published anonomously (without mentioning your name) simply say so (and your wishes will be respected). 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BACKGROUND INFORMATION ---------------------- For further information on the character of this list * read your welcome note from Shamash * read PESHAT and DERASH: TRADITION, Winter 1980 by Russell Hendel End of Rashi-Is-Simple Digest #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# (C) Dr Hendel, 1999 *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*