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From: Russell Hendel <RHendel@RO.HCFA.GOV> Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 11:08:32 -0500 Subject: Grape Juice (even if not from Concentrate) for the Seder The discussion by [Press, Brotsky, Segal etc in V23#71] about using Welch's grape juice for the four cups leads me to ask the following question. I once mentioned to Rabbi Jordan Kellemer (currently in LI) that I used Grape Juice, not wine, on Shabbath because I personally liked the sweet taste of Grape juice and found wine a little bit too strong. I commented that I thought it more consistent with Halachah to use something sweet. Rabbi Kellemer responded by observing that my logic was OK for Shabbath but not for the Seder. He acknowledged that grape juice is generally SWEETER than wine. However, the ARBAH KOSOTH has another component BESIDES SIMCHATH YOM TOV, namely, CHERUTH, an affirmation of freedom. People, continued Rabbi Kellemer, who wish to affirm their adulthood don't generally use Grape Juice which is available and popular even with children and other not completely free people. Adulthood/Freedom is best confirmed thru "adult" drinks like wine. So, concluded Rabbi Kellemer, even though from a Simchath yom tov point of view the grape juice is better, nevertheless, the 4 cups should be of wine for reasons of CHERUTH. Rabbi Kellemer was not MY POSAYK; however because of the logic of his arguments I never again had grape juice, but only wine, during the Seder. However, according to the recent discussions in MJ it would appear that the only OBJECTION to grape juice is if it is from concentrate. Could someone please clarify the situation for me? More specifically, I am asking if it is permissable (or preferable) to use pure Grape Juice for the 4 cups seeing that wine not grape juice is needed to affirm CHERUTH. Please note, I am not asking for PESAK's in books; I am rather asking for a response to the logic of Rabbi Kellemer's observation. I of course would be eternally "grapeful" if I could go back to having sweet grape juice on Yom Tov Russell Hendel, Ph.d. ASA Dept of Math and Computer Science Drexel Univ; Phil PA rhendel@mcs.drexel.edu