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From: rhendel@mcs.drexel.edu (Russell Hendel)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:47:18 -0400
Subject: Petition vs Grandeur in Prayer

It seems that Jordan Wagner and I are finally in agreement about the
Ravs statement about Jewish vs Christian music[V26n59].  I just wanted
to supplement this agreement with some sources

As Jordan notes the Ravs comments that Jewish [Shmoneh Esray] music is
petionary is
	>>You've really said something about the trends in the text rather
	than in the music>>

What I would like to point out is that this is more than a "trend"--it
is a law: The Rambam, citing Gemarah's states in Prayer 9: 7

	>>..and similarly a person who prays should not have alot of
	praise (=granduer)
	(e.g. he shouldn't say): The Almighty, the Great, The Warrior, The
	Awesome, The Strong, The Controller, The Brazen...
	because it is not humanly possible to completely state all his praise>>

In fact the Talmud says that if Moses had not used the 4 attributes in
Dt 10:17 then we could not use them.

Although I have not heard explicitly about the Christian laws of prayer
it seems to me that Christians in their texts, choirs(vs solo chazans)
and music set as their goal the praise of G-d.

Let me put it another way (and I think this will further clarify the
agreement that started to evolve between Jordan and myself): The Rav
isn't claiming that Christian music/prayer/texts/choirs cannot >>move
you to tears>>(Jordan's own words) but rather he is claiming that
Christians have set as one of their prayer goals the magnification and
praise of G-d and that this particular goal (possibly among other goals)
in wrong according to Jewish thinking. Thus I think it would be clearer
if I further change my position and state that the Ravs comments were
not necessarily about TRENDS in the prayer / music but rather about
GOALS in the prayer / music. The main goal of Jewish Prayer is not for
us to Praise G-d but to be aware of our helplessness before Him.

Russell Jay Hendel; Ph.d.;ASA; rhendel @ mcs drexel edu