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From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@mcs.drexel.edu>
Subject: Some obscure points on Forgiveness

Bob Werman raises the excellent question "What is forgiveness".

I am certain much will be said. I just wanted to add one short idea
which often gets overlooked: Forgiveness can be conditional and even
consistent with punishment. Here are some simple examples (from Jewish
law)

1) Someone is careless in my house and breaks an expensive vase. When he
asks forgiveness I have a right to ask renumeration for the vase (and
only then forgive him)

2) According to our traditions (See Talmud Yuma) a person who violates
even a severe prohibition (like Shabbath or family purity) does have the
right to repent but our traditions teach us that forgiveness may have as
a prerequisite "suffering" which will "cleanse us from the sin". Indeed,
for certain sins "death" itself is a prerequisite for "forgiveness".

3) Forgiveness (See Rambam Repentance Chap 1) *intrinsically* requires
regret and "change of action". Here is a cute (Actual) story. A few
years ago there was one person who would always insult my laining. He
came over to me One Rosh Hashana and asked my forgiveness. I smiled and
said "Of course....PROVIDED the insults really stop". (The person a
short while later changed minyan from the one where I lain (so he could
control his great urge to attach me!! ..but the insults did stop..  and
he stills frquently heres me lain in other places). The point of the
story is I had a right to make the "forgivenss" "conditional".

4) Here is one I don't know the answer to: Reuven had been dating Dinah.
Shimon comes along and steals Dina, marries her etc. Shimon later asks
Reuven "forgiveness". My own opinion is that perhaps Reuven can make his
forgiveness dependent on God punishing Shimon for the anguish he caused
him {Perhaps this can generate some discussion}

Russell Jay Hendel; Phd ASA Rhendel @ mcs drexel edu
Adjunct Associate Professor of Mathematics and Computer Science
Moderator Rashi-is-Simple
http://www.shamash.org/Rashi/Index.htm